armenia of 1918 and the Bolshoves

[arabico]

Does anyone have a map of the Armenian republic in 1918? why did Bolshevs give up kars to turkey in 1921?

Also if the Bolshovs did not come to power in Russia, do you think the borders of Armenia now would be different?

[ace]

Umm..if they didn't come to power in Russia, I think Turkey would've persued war with the new found republic and we would've been under Turkish rule instead of Soviet.

[arabico]

I've been researching on this subject for the last 3-4 hours and I came to a different conclusion.

during 1914-1916 tzarist Russia was on the offensive against ottoman turkey. They captured many regions like kars, erzerum, van...

When the Bolshevic revolution happened in Russia 1917, Russia withdrew leaving the Armenian alone to protect themselves.

The Armenians did well fighting the Turks alone keeping many regions like kars until 1920 when the Bolshoves came to Armenia. In 1921 they gave up Kars to Turkey without a fight!!

[ace]

What if the Republic wasn't conquered by the bolsheviks? Turkey demanded that land back and the bolsheviks (and i think the dashnuks?) had no power...they had to agree to Turkish demands to prevent another war.

If they didn't agree Turkey would've attacked and taken ALL of it anyway. And if we weren't under soviet protection, we would've eventually warred with Turkey...and easly lost.

Well, thats my opionin anyway.

[arabico]

what if the Bolshevic revolution never happened?

[ace]

Thaaan im guessing we would've never been annexed into the soviet union and would've had to have protect ourselves BY ourselves.

When WWII started, and the Germans attacked Stalingrad, the Turkish army rose to its feet, waiting for Russia to fall, so it can attack the former republic again. I am lead to believe that if it werent for the Russians (now and before) Turkey would've made some bullxxxx excuse for attacking us and would've conquered our land. That would lead to the succesful genocide of the Armenian people. One way or the other. :)

[ace]

Im convinced if it werent for the Russians. The Armenian people would've been wiped off the face of the planet hundreds of years ago. We'd be worse than the Assyrians.

[Կարմիր Բ]

The Armenians did well fighting the Turks alone keeping many regions like kars until 1920 when the Bolshoves came to Armenia. In 1921 they gave up Kars to Turkey without a fight!!

Wrong. The Dashnaks gave Kars in the treaty of Alexandropol between Armenia and Turkey so that they can fight against the armenian Bolshevicks. It is the biggest treachery they have ever done. The Dashnaks gave them Kars and the Turks recognised the Republic of Armenia as sovereign state.
For this reason, Turkey is the first country to recognise Armenia as an independent State.

Basically the bourgeois of our nation chosed to fight against their own countrymen instead of the Turks. If they didn't signed the Treaty of Alexandropol the Red Army could have demanded Kars from the Turks.

what if the Bolshevic revolution never happened?


If the Bolshevik revolution didn't took place there would no be Armenia today. The armenians would have been more or less what the Chechens are today, in the best case. The only reason that we have an independent state is because of that revolution.

If the Bolshevik revolution happened sometime later, we have would both an independent state and Greater Armenia. Had our bourgeois , in this case the Dashnaks, sided with the Soviets, history would be very different today.

[ace]

Wrong. The Dashnaks gave Kars in the treaty of Alexandropol between Armenia and Turkey so that they can fight against the armenian Bolshevicks. It is the biggest treachery they have ever done. The Dashnaks gave them Kars and the Turks recognised the Republic of Armenia as sovereign state.
For this reason, Turkey is the first country to recognise Armenia as an independent State.

I didnt say that...why did it quote me? I was actually the one who sad the dashnuks gave our land away...

[Կարմիր Բ]

I didnt say that...why did it quote me? I was actually the one who sad the dashnuks gave our land away...


I am sorry, i wanted to quote arabico instead of you. I apologize.

[arabico]

The bolsheves confirmed the ceding of Kars by the treaty of Kars in 1921.They also gave nakhichevan and karapakh to azeris. All, in all the size of Armenia was reduced trice!


If the bolshevic revolution didn't happen, I think Russia woul've continued its campaign against ottoman turkey and the Armenian border would've been much larger.

[ace]

If the bolshevic revolution didn't happen, I think Russia woul've continued its campaign against ottoman turkey.

No, they would've just gotten their ass kicked more.

If they did win though they would've still conquered Armenia, they HAD conquered all of it anyway. But yes, that was xxxx of them to give the land to the east to those damn Azeris.

[bell-the-cat]

I've been researching on this subject for the last 3-4 hours and I came to a different conclusion.

during 1914-1916 tzarist Russia was on the offensive against ottoman turkey. They captured many regions like kars, erzerum, van...

When the Bolshevic revolution happened in Russia 1917, Russia withdrew leaving the Armenian alone to protect themselves.

The Armenians did well fighting the Turks alone keeping many regions like kars until 1920 when the Bolshoves came to Armenia. In 1921 they gave up Kars to Turkey without a fight!!

Your researching skills suck. All of the above are false. :(

[arabico]

Your researching skills suck. All of the above are false. :(

and I think you are a brainwashed communist. If you can't correct me you better not post at all. :wave:

[TomServo]

It was pretty big in 1918, but did it have access to the sea?

[Կարմիր Բ]

It was pretty big in 1918, but did it have access to the sea?

No. The orange part was Armenia back then, if i am not mistaken.

Map (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/RedBrigade/Armenia/sevres_agreement1.jpg)

[arabico]

Here is a better map:

http://ho5t.us/show.php?locm=cc2a4e1c94.jpg

[Կարմիր Բ]

Without access to the sea, things will be very difficult. We are landlocked and surrounded by hostile nations. We must open a route to the Black Sea through Georgia when the time is correct. Georgia is boiling.

[TigranJamharian]

that is the easiest option to get to the black sea, but frankly i dont see it happening, especialy with the BP pipeline running through any route that would take us to the sea.

[Che_Ka]

Wow, looking at that map, I thought 2 things.

1) How great would it have been if the Treaty of Sevres borders were realized. Armenia would not be landlocked, and would have maintained a small portion of Western Armenia, Vana Lij, and Mt. Ararat.

2) Then I thought, since most Western Armenians had died or were on the way to forming the diaspora, who would have lived in the western portion of the Armenian Republic? Who lived there in 1920? Turks, Kurds, and Hamshens? Would Armenia have been a multi-cultural republic? Would those Turks and Kurds be speaking Armenian today as their state language?

I probably have it all wrong. But it was something that sparked my interest.

[ace]

Wow, looking at that map, I thought 2 things.

1) How great would it have been if the Treaty of Sevres borders were realized. Armenia would not be landlocked, and would have maintained a small portion of Western Armenia, Vana Lij, and Mt. Ararat.

2) Then I thought, since most Western Armenians had died or were on the way to forming the diaspora, who would have lived in the western portion of the Armenian Republic? Who lived there in 1920? Turks, Kurds, and Hamshens? Would Armenia have been a multi-cultural republic? Would those Turks and Kurds be speaking Armenian today as their state language?

I probably have it all wrong. But it was something that sparked my interest.

Most Turks and Kurds would've fled due to war. Yah, that land would've been really nice though.

[arabico]

Wow, looking at that map, I thought 2 things.

1) How great would it have been if the Treaty of Sevres borders were realized. Armenia would not be landlocked, and would have maintained a small portion of Western Armenia, Vana Lij, and Mt. Ararat.

2) Then I thought, since most Western Armenians had died or were on the way to forming the diaspora, who would have lived in the western portion of the Armenian Republic? Who lived there in 1920? Turks, Kurds, and Hamshens? Would Armenia have been a multi-cultural republic? Would those Turks and Kurds be speaking Armenian today as their state language?

I probably have it all wrong. But it was something that sparked my interest.

M. Ararat was under Armenian control between 1918-1920.

If sevres was realized there also would've been a Kurdistan in the southeast of Turkey. Most likely the kurds were going to migrate to south and the remaining of western Armenians would resettle in the lands granted by sevres and everybody would've lived happily ever after :naughty: :D

why sevres failed? i think western forces were busy with the middle east and internal problems. also because Armenia felt to the bolshoves. The situation was perfect for Ataturk and the Turks won militarily and diplomatically. :evil:

[bell-the-cat]

M. Ararat was under Armenian control between 1918-1920.

If sevres was realized there also would've been a Kurdistan in the southeast of Turkey. Most likely the kurds were going to migrate to south and the remaining of western Armenians would resettle in the lands granted by sevres and everybody would've lived happily ever after :naughty: :D

why sevres failed? i think western forces were busy with the middle east and internal problems. also because Armenia felt to the bolshoves. The situation was perfect for Ataturk and the Turks won militarily and diplomatically. :evil:

The Armenian genocide made any proposal to create Armenian territory out of Turkish controlled territory completely untainable - that, after all, was the point of the genocide.

The territory proposed to Armenia by the Sevres treaty was totally unworkable - this was the reason that no foreign Power actively supported it. 90% of the population there was not Armenian, and you are living in fantasy-land if you suppose that they would have just left. And any attempt to remove them would have triggered a Turkish military response. It was heavy-handed Armenian attempts to gain actual, rather than on-paper, control of the Muslim-populated territories around Ararat, Kaghizman, and Oltu that was used as an excuse for the renewed Turkish offensive against Armenia in 1920.

Further to my "Your researching skills suck" comment.

Between 1915 and 1917 the Russian Army did not pursue an offensive war against Turkey. Throughout WW2, the policy of the Russian forces was one of active defense - the territorial advances that were made were made as a result of defeats of offensive Turkish actions, or by pre-emptive strikes made to neutralise the risk of Turkish offensives. The war in the Caucasus Front was always a sideline for the Russian Empire.

After the November 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, Russia signed a peace treaty with Germany and its allies which required the withdrawing of its forces. But most had already left anyway - they had "self-demobilised" themselves - by the summer of 1917, and an unofficial armistice was operating along the Russo-Turkish front.

It was not until February 1918 that the Turkish army renewed the war. The attacking Turks were mostly unopposed by the vastly outnumbered Armenian forces, who were mainly engaged in protecting civilian refugees fleeing from the advancing front-line. Kars was lost in on the 25th April, without a shot being fired. The Armenian republic lost Kars again in October 1920, before the Bolshevik invasion, and it was actually the Dashnak government that signed the treaty of Alexandropol, which ceded Kars province to Turkey.

So the Armenian Republic lost Kars before the Bolsheviks invaded Armenia. They also lost Alexandropol, and, though they managed to recapture it, would probably have lost it again if it were not that the Bolshevik forces were perceived by Turkey to have strong Russian allies waiting to intervene if Turkey again renewed its offensive.

[arabico]

Between 1915 and 1917 the Russian Army did not pursue an offensive war against Turkey. Throughout WW2, the policy of the Russian forces was one of active defense - the territorial advances that were made were made as a result of defeats of offensive Turkish actions, or by pre-emptive strikes made to neutralise the risk of Turkish offensives. The war in the Caucasus Front was always a sideline for the Russian Empire.



call it a pre-emptive strikes. The facts are there. By the end of 1916 russians advanced, occupying vast areas including Erzurum and Van. You can have your own analysis but the facts remain the same.

Regarding the issue of Kars, the treaty of alexandropol was signed the same day that bolshovs came to power in Armenia. The dashnaks who signed it had no power anymore. It's like the diaspora signing a treaty with azerbaijan to give up artsakh... :laugh:

in fact, the bolshovs gave up kars even before they came to power in Armenia through the treaty of "Brest-Litovsk" in 1918. The dashnaks knew that the bolshovs will give kars to turkey if they came to power so they did it themselves to concentrate fighting bolshovs.

[bell-the-cat]

call it a pre-emptive strikes. The facts are there. By the end of 1916 russians advanced, occupying vast areas including Erzurum and Van. You can have your own analysis but the facts remain the same.


Actually, a correct analysis of the facts are vital on this point, and you seem to be inadvertantly supporting the Turkish State.
It is the Turkish official position that in 1915 its empire was under immediate threat from Russian invasions and Armenian 5th-columnists, and that is why the "evacuations" of Armenians were necessary. All that is nonsense - there was no aggressive Russian invasion supported by Armenians. In fact, it was Turkey that was always the aggressor - starting in 1914 when they invaded northern Iran, and committed genocide against the Armenians and other Christians living there - an event which, significantly, preceeded the Armenian Genocide proper.

[EMRE]

Wrong. The Dashnaks gave Kars in the treaty of Alexandropol between Armenia and Turkey so that they can fight against the armenian Bolshevicks. It is the biggest treachery they have ever done. The Dashnaks gave them Kars and the Turks recognised the Republic of Armenia as sovereign state.
For this reason, Turkey is the first country to recognise Armenia as an independent State.

Basically the bourgeois of our nation chosed to fight against their own countrymen instead of the Turks. If they didn't signed the Treaty of Alexandropol the Red Army could have demanded Kars from the Turks.



If the Bolshevik revolution didn't took place there would no be Armenia today. The armenians would have been more or less what the Chechens are today, in the best case. The only reason that we have an independent state is because of that revolution.

If the Bolshevik revolution happened sometime later, we have would both an independent state and Greater Armenia. Had our bourgeois , in this case the Dashnaks, sided with the Soviets, history would be very different today.



If the bolshevik revolution hadnt taken place,in this way russia wouldnt have saved armenia from turkey.because we had gained victory against dashnak armenians,and then we could have expanded towards yerevan and have invaded some parts of armenia and may be whole armenia.because ataturk had indignant feelings against armenians,but without russian assistance armenians wouldnt have independant state,but at that time,was palpable that turkey didnt want to reclaim the lost ottoman lands in this region.russians took action strategically and signed very logical agreement with ataturk turkey

of course they wouldnt demand kars from turkey,because russia wouldnt want turkey to fall into the hands of allied forces troops(especially france)because after russian defeat in anatolia,russians gave their all war hardwares and equipments to turks.for the purpose that turkey must defend their lands against imperialist forces,and declare independance.russian policy was at that time,l couldnt invade some parts of anatolia,other allied powers mustnt invade anatolia.and it was a clandestine military treaty between russia and turkey before it.


maybe Im mistaken,but I knew always that,turkey is the first country to recognize armenia as an independant country in 1990 after the demise of the soviet union.not as in your comment that bolshevik and dashnak times.

[ace]

Wow, looking at that map, I thought 2 things.

2) Then I thought, since most Western Armenians had died or were on the way to forming the diaspora, who would have lived in the western portion of the Armenian Republic? Who lived there in 1920? Turks, Kurds, and Hamshens? Would Armenia have been a multi-cultural republic? Would those Turks and Kurds be speaking Armenian today as their state language?

I probably have it all wrong. But it was something that sparked my interest.


You do, if the Armenians of Western Armenia were not exiled from their land, they would not be the DIASPORA, and would still live on those lands - thus, still living in Western Armenia. Kurds and Turks would be a small minority, as they were back then.

[TomServo]

Laule.

[arabico]

If the bolshevik revolution hadnt taken place,in this way russia wouldnt have saved armenia from turkey.because we had gained victory against dashnak armenians,and then we could have expanded towards yerevan and have invaded some parts of armenia and may be whole armenia.because ataturk had indignant feelings against armenians,but without russian assistance armenians wouldnt have independant state,but at that time,was palpable that turkey didnt want to reclaim the lost ottoman lands in this region.russians took action strategically and signed very logical agreement with ataturk turkey

of course they wouldnt demand kars from turkey,because russia wouldnt want turkey to fall into the hands of allied forces troops(especially france)because after russian defeat in anatolia,russians gave their all war hardwares and equipments to turks.for the purpose that turkey must defend their lands against imperialist forces,and declare independance.russian policy was at that time,l couldnt invade some parts of anatolia,other allied powers mustnt invade anatolia.and it was a clandestine military treaty between russia and turkey before it.


maybe Im mistaken,but I knew always that,turkey is the first country to recognize armenia as an independant country in 1990 after the demise of the soviet union.not as in your comment that bolshevik and dashnak times.

What a stupid analysis. You contradict yourself in many ways. and what's with the unrelated issue of turkey recognizing armenia in 1990? we are talking in 1920. ok? we know turkey loves armenia very much and cares about its existence :D

at least get this fact: Russia was in war with Turkey before the fc.king belshovic revolution. This is a facttttt. look it up. Turkey's ass was being kicked. This is also a fact. You can't find this in Turkish history books neither in communist russian history books.

the bolshevic revolution was a gift from god to ataturk. It made russia turky's ally.

before: turky was fighting russians >>>>> after: they fought small armenian resistance. no more russians fighting with turkey.

With all these facts, i can't understand how some people think that without the bolshoves armenia would've been conqured by turkey. It's the absolute opposite. Turkey was being conqured by russia. If this sudden change never happened in russia, do you think the russians would've withdrew from van or erzurum? no! they would even go deeper in turkey. If Turkey was fighting two fronts at the same time instead of only one in the west, they would've lost both of them since they only relied on mass soldier numbers.


without this revolution, Turky's map would've been very small both from the west and east.

Emre, I suggest that you put a picture of lenin next to the picture of ataturk in your home :D

[mdundar57]

What a stupid analysis. You contradict yourself in many ways. and what's with the unrelated issue of turkey recognizing armenia in 1990? we are talking in 1920. ok? we know turkey loves armenia very much and cares about its existence :D

at least get this fact: Russia was in war with Turkey before the fc.king belshovic revolution. This is a facttttt. look it up. Turkey's ass was being kicked. This is also a fact. You can't find this in Turkish history books neither in communist russian history books.

the bolshevic revolution was a gift from god to ataturk. It made russia turky's ally.

before: turky was fighting russians >>>>> after: they fought small armenian resistance. no more russians fighting with turkey.

With all these facts, i can't understand how some people think that without the bolshoves armenia would've been conqured by turkey. It's the absolute opposite. Turkey was being conqured by russia. If this sudden change never happened in russia, do you think the russians would've withdrew from van or erzurum? no! they would even go deeper in turkey. If Turkey was fighting two fronts at the same time instead of only one in the west, they would've lost both of them since they only relied on mass soldier numbers.


without this revolution, Turky's map would've been very small both from the west and east.

Emre, I suggest that you put a picture of lenin next to the picture of ataturk in your home :D

Arabico, are you a history proffesor? so u had research about all of these which not in none turkish or russian books or recordings... great.. then you should know the turks nature? russians could never go any deeper then erzurum because even fighting against the whole world still a new army was ready to fight against russians but they left country before a fight but that army had a war with armanians and won. Kazim Karabekir was the leader of the army and he is known as the hawk of the east.. in 28 september 1920 Kazim Karabekir won armenians and got back sarıkamis in sept. 29 and kars in 30 th sept. then armenians wanted peace and promised to no to fight against turkiye again.. Read the Turkish History and u will see Turks always win when equal.. always..

[dizdar]

Ifthis sudden change never happened in russia, do you think the russians would've withdrew from van or erzurum? no! they would even go deeper in turkey.
If Turkey was fighting two fronts at the same time instead of only one in the west, they would've lost both of them since they only relied on mass soldier numbers.


without this revolution, Turky's map would've beenvery small both from the west and east.
IF IF IF ,You use "If" so much that you must be an expert on fiction :laugh:

You can write a new history by your "IF"s :laugh: :laugh:

Yes If turkish nation hadn't been so determined and brave to just defence their country against 5 imperialist coutries and some traitors, Turkey couldn't have won this great war.
Yes I see you, It is an injustice :D

[milleniumboy]

I want to talk to armenians in this forum, I am definitely sure that even the armenian government does not let you learn your real history from their own archieves in Armenia. because armenia cannot explain the murders done against turks by armenians at those times. be brave any longer and try to learn your real history from the ottoman archieves in Istanbul, there are the history of today's 26 independent lands and stop it with this genocide-nonsense any more.....

[Anonymouse]

I want to talk to armenians in this forum, I am definitely sure that even the armenian government does not let you learn your real history from their own archieves in Armenia. because armenia cannot explain the murders done against turks by armenians at those times. be brave any longer and try to learn your real history from the ottoman archieves in Istanbul, there are the history of today's 26 independent lands and stop it with this genocide-nonsense any more.....

Listen Turkey. If you are going to come in here, spewing your usual Turkic bromide, you will be banned. Before you make pointless posts, I suggest you read previous threads to get a better understanding of what is going on here and what sets the bar for an actual discussion.

Turks do not open and have not opened their archives to anyone. To pretend they have is stupid and only shows the amount of ignorance you possess. If you are going to make stupid blanket assertions, there is no reason for you to be here.

I am tired of having to tell each and every Turk that drags their knuckles through the internet to these here forums only to end up making stupid, inane, and blanket statements, with no intent to discuss, nor possessing the adequate knowledge, or possession of language to engage in a discussion.

[milleniumboy]

Listen Turkey. If you are going to come in here, spewing your usual Turkic bromide, you will be banned. Before you make pointless posts, I suggest you read previous threads to get a better understanding of what is going on here and what sets the bar for an actual discussion.

Turks do not open and have not opened their archives to anyone. To pretend they have is stupid and only shows the amount of ignorance you possess. If you are going to make stupid blanket assertions, there is no reason for you to be here.

I am tired of having to tell each and every Turk that drags their knuckles through the internet to these here forums only to end up making stupid, inane, and blanket statements, with no intent to discuss, nor possessing the adequate knowledge, or possession of language to engage in a discussion.

my aim is surely to discuss what had happened at those times between armenians and turks. It does not seem to be a genocide. but you do not let me write what I know. You are just making proboganda here simply based on lies. And you stop the people who are knowing this story differently.... What can I say any more... I wish you "Good luck". but be sure that the idiot Turkey love Armenia more than Armenia loves Turkey.... but I fear that this situation cannot not last forever, to me that is a stupidity.....

[RSNATION]

my aim is surely to discuss what had happened at those times between armenians and turks. It does not seem to be a genocide. but you do not let me write what I know. You are just making proboganda here simply based on lies. And you stop the people who are knowing this story differently.... What can I say any more... I wish you "Good luck". but be sure that the idiot Turkey love Armenia more than Armenia loves Turkey.... but I fear that this situation cannot not last forever, to me that is a stupidity.....



Thank you for educating us. Can you tell us about Ataturk's Sun Theory of Peoples? It makes a lot of sense and is taken seriously by scholars worldwide :)

"May you live in fascinating times and meet interesting people".

[RSNATION]

Thank you for educating us. Can you tell us about Ataturk's Sun Theory of Peoples? It makes a lot of sense and is taken seriously by scholars worldwide :)

"May you live in fascinating times and meet interesting people".


Still waiting to learn about Ataturk's Sun Theory of Peoples. :)

[Selpak]

Still waiting to learn about Ataturk's Sun Theory of Peoples.

The Sun Language Theory (Turkish: Güneş Dil Kuramı) was a linguistic theory proposing that all human languages are descendants of one Turkic primal language. The theory further proposed that the only language remaining more or less the same as this primal language is Turkish. The theory owes its name to the idea that human language began when primitive man looked up at the sun and exclaimed "Aa!".

The origin of the theory was a paper by French scientist Hilaire de Baranton entitled "L'Origine des Langues, des Religions et des Peuples". Origionally, the theory was that all languages stem from ancient Sumerian. Turkish theories defined the Sumerians as an ancient "Turkic people", who were origionally from Central Asia. Once the paper came to the attention of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, he created the Sun Language theory and introduced it into Turkish political and educational circles in 1935, at the high point of attempts to 'cleanse' the Turkish language of foreign influences.[1] It fell into final oblivion in the 1950s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Theory

You was know it and you read it again. What is your point?

[ARK]

:laugh:

[TomServo]

He did not cleanse the language of foreign influences. If he tried, he failed miserably.

[melikianAvak]

Arabico, are you a history proffesor? so u had research about all of these which not in none turkish or russian books or recordings... great.. then you should know the turks nature? russians could never go any deeper then erzurum because even fighting against the whole world still a new army was ready to fight against russians but they left country before a fight but that army had a war with armanians and won. Kazim Karabekir was the leader of the army and he is known as the hawk of the east.. in 28 september 1920 Kazim Karabekir won armenians and got back sarıkamis in sept. 29 and kars in 30 th sept. then armenians wanted peace and promised to no to fight against turkiye again.. Read the Turkish History and u will see Turks always win when equal.. always..
************************************************** ********
The Battle of Sardarapat

The chaos that spread throughout Western Armenia, during the Great Genocide of 1915, when nearly 2,000,000 Armenians were killed in a systematic attempt to wipe out the Armenian Nation as a whole by the Turkish government, hadn’t yet affected Eastern Armenia, particularly St. Etchmiadzin. But large number of fleeing refugees those who managed to escape, due to the help of the Armenian fighters and Russian regular army during the evacuation of Van, told the horrible stories of the Genocide. The Turks having bloodied and obliterated all of Western Armenia and Cilician Armenia of its Armenian population, wanted to do the same in Eastern Armenia, and "finish the job" and once and for all "solve" the Armenian Question and their plan of mass extermination of the Armenian people. The Turks were masters at finding the right moment for such an act, they did the same during World War I, in the year 1915 when the world was in turmoil and war, they quickly put into effect their horrific and barbarous deed of Genocide. The same turmoil was now in Eastern Armenia, the Russian Front had collapsed, because of the Russian Revolution of 1917, Armenia was overflowed with hundred of thousands of survivors of the Genocide. The chaos of the fall of the Russian Empire and order had terrible affect on Armenia. The Turks having seen the right moment for their barbarous plan, in early 1918 moved on Eastern Armenia, their advance was seen as unstoppable. But the Armenian nation having seen and felt the terrible deeds of the Turk, united under one call: "In Arms", everyone joined into the effort to stop the bloody Turks and check their advance. Armenian volunteers from Europe and Americas, as well as other parts of the world joined along side their kinsmen to fight for the preservation of the Armenian nation, which was on the brink of extinction. The Turks had almost reached the Holy City of St. Etchmiadzin. Armenian regiments from Yerevan rushed to save the Holiest of Hollis, St. Etchmiadzin. The decisive battle took place near the town of Sardarapat. Every Armenian knew that if the battle was lost, the fate of extinction through systematic Genocide awaited the nation. The battle began at dawn with the Turks charging up into the Armenian positions. The Armenians, stood their ground and the Turks having seen the tenacity and will, first stopped and slowly began to retreat, the Armenians threw a wide counter offensive in which the Turks began to flee in unorganized fashion, the Armenians with vengeance in their hearts cut down many Turks with bayonets and rifle fire. The Turks were so surprised by the Armenian blow, they were chased hundreds of miles by the Armenian troops. On their retreat they were constantly attacked and harassed by Armenian partisans and guerrilla warfare.

The Battle of Sardarapat became the turning point in Armenia history. The point of rebirth and national will for survival. The horrific plan of the Turks to exterminate the Armenian people and "get them off their way" had failed. In fact Armenia was reborn and the Republic of Armenia was proclaimed on May 28, 1918. Born out of ashes of Genocide and the heroic Battle of Sardarapat, Republic of Armenia, comprised only the lands of Eastern Armenia, Western Armenia and Cilician Armenia still being under the occupation of the Turks. The treaty of Sevres on August 10, 1920, in which the Turkish government recognized and signed the passing of Western Armenia to the Republic of Armenia. The Allies assured the Armenians, that the return of the occupied lands, will take place which would have been a very small remission for the Great Genocide and nearly 2,000,000 innocent victims who were martyred in their historic Homeland during the Genocide, but the empty promises by the Allies and their unwillingness to follow up and resolve the injustice, by political pressure on Turks to do what they had signed in the Treaty of Sevres, and to apply force if needed be, which the Armenians were originally promised to receive, a British or American mandate with British or American troops safeguarding the actual Turkish hand over of Western Armenia was never actually done, except for the great efforts by President Woodrow Wilson, who himself mapped the lands of Western Armenia to be passed to the Republic of Armenia and his stand against the unwilling Congress and icelationism policy, to pass the mandate into effect. The promises only remained a vague pledge and a great disappointment and a deceiving exploit of the Armenian people by the Allies for their own purposes and interests only in the game of realpolitik. To this day Holy Mt. Ararat, which can been seen from St. Etchmiadzin and is the symbol of the Armenian people is still falsly called Aghri Dagh by the Turks, it is still in Turkish hands. Each glance upon the Biblical and graceful Mt. Ararat gives an agonizing and tormenting feeling and arouses painful memories to an Armenian living on the other side of river Arax.

Avak

[melikianAvak]

Arabico, are you a history proffesor? so u had research about all of these which not in none turkish or russian books or recordings... great.. then you should know the turks nature? russians could never go any deeper then erzurum because even fighting against the whole world still a new army was ready to fight against russians but they left country before a fight but that army had a war with armanians and won. Kazim Karabekir was the leader of the army and he is known as the hawk of the east.. in 28 september 1920 Kazim Karabekir won armenians and got back sarıkamis in sept. 29 and kars in 30 th sept. then armenians wanted peace and promised to no to fight against turkiye again.. Read the Turkish History and u will see Turks always win when equal.. always..
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Our people fought the turks, their mistake was to thrust the word of the turk.
Trust no one--- Always stand with a brother or sister Hay.

New York Times
On the web
ARMENIANS' HEROIC STAND IN MOUNTAINS

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Men, women, and Children Fought with Knives, Scythes, and Stones
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Women Who Had Plunged Knives Into Turks Afterward Killed Themselves---Bryce Gets Report
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SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1915
LONDON, Nov. 26.--Viscount Bryce tonight made public the details of further Armenian massacres, which, in a letter accompanying them, he says, "surpass in horror, if that were possible, what has been published already."
"I feel," his letter continues, "that such crimes ought to be exposed to the utmost, and that the charity of other nations will more than ever be drawn to the unhappy refugees when it is known what their friends and fellow-countrymen have suffered."
Describing a last stand of Armenian in the hill country of Samsun, a report received by Lord Bryce says:
"The surviving warriors found themselves surrounded at close quarters by 30,000 Turks and Kurds. Then followed one of those desperate, heroic struggles for life which have always been the pride of the mountaineers. Men, women, and Children fought with knives, scythes, and stones, and anything else they could handle. They rolled blocks of stone down the steep slopes, killing many of their enemies. In the frightful hand-to -hand combats women were seen thrusting their knives into the throats of Turks.
"When every warrior had fallen, several of the younger women who were in danger of falling into the hands of the Turks threw themselves from the rocks, some of them with infants in their arms."
Lord Bryce's Letter
Lord Bryce says the details confirm and amplify the ghastly history of deportations by which Armenians in Northern and Eastern Anatolia were driven to a death of fiendish cruelty. The first part of the evidence, he says, was received by the Committee of Inquiry in the United States, and the second part comes from an Armenian gentleman at Tiflis, who received it from refugees who escaped from regions where the events happened.
"The sufferings of the peasants and the mountaineers in the regions of Van, Mush, and Samsun," Lord Bryce says, "seem to have been even more terrible than were those of the peaceful town folk described in Part I of the report. Every successive piece of evidence increases the horror of the story and confirmes the dreadful certainly of its truth.
"These atrocities were not produced by imagination. Many of them are vouched for by several coincident testimonies. They all are in keeping, and the evidence is most complete, and some of it most terrible. At this present phase of events the civilized world is powerless to intervene, but we must bear these unspeakable crimes in constant memory against the day of reckoning."
THE NEW EVIDENCE
After giving the parts of the evidence received from the United States, Lord Bryce says that the following extracts were taken from his correspondent at Tiflis:
"Toward the end of May Djevdet Bey, the Military Governor, was expelled from Van. Djevdet fled southward and entered Sairt with some 8,000 soldiers, whom he called 'Butcher Battalions. He massacred most of the Christians of Sairt, as to the details of which nothing is known. On the best of authority, however it is reported that he ordered his soldiers to burn in the public squares the Armenian Bishop, Eglise Vartaved, and the Chaldean Bishop, Addai Sher.
"On June 25 the Turks surrounded the Town of Bitlis and cut its communications with neighboring Armenian villagers. Then most of the able-bodied men were taken away from their women by domiciliary visits. During the following few days all the men under arrest were shot outside the town and buried in deep trenches dug by the victims themselves. The young women and children were distributed among the rabble. The remainder, the useless lot were driven to the south and are believed to have been drowned in the Tigris.
"Any attempts at resistance, however brave, were quelled by the regular troops. Many Armenians, after firing their last cartridge, either took poison by whole families or killed themselves in their homes in order not to fall into the hands of the Turks.
Armenians Tortured to Death.
It is such a fashion that the Turks disposed of about fifteen thousand Armenians at Bitlis. At Mush early in July the authorities demanded arms from the Armenians and a large sum in ransom of notables of the town. The head men of the village were subjected to revolting tortures. Their finger nails and then their toe nails were forcibly extracted; teeth were knocked out, and in some cases noses were whittled down the victims thus being done to death under shocking, lingering agony.
"The female relatives of victims who came to the rescue were assaulted in public before the very eyes of their mutilated men. The shrieks and death cries of the victims filled the air, yet they did not move the Turkish beast.
"In the Town of Mush itself the Armenians, under the leadership Gotoyan and others, entrenched themselves in churches and stone-built houses and fought for four days in self-defense, but Turkish artillery, manned by German officers, made short work of all the Armenian positions, and all the Armenian leaders, as well as their men were killed in the fighting.
"When they were dead and silence reigned over the ruins of the churches and houses the rest of the Moslem rabble descended upon the women and children and drove them out of town and into large camps, which already had been prepared for the peasant women and children.
Women and Children Burned
"The ghastly scenes which followed may seem incredible, yet these reports have been confirmed beyond all doubt. The shortest means employed for disposing of the women and children in the various camps was by burning. Fire was set to the large wooden sheds in Alijan, Mograkom, Khasjogh, and other Armenian Villages, and these absolutely helpless women and children were roasted to death.
"Many women went mad and threw away their children. Some women knelt down and prayed amid the flames which were burning their bodies. Others shrieked for help, which came from nowhere, and the executioners, who seemed unmoved by this unparalleled savagery, grasped infants by one leg and hurried them into the fire, calling out to the burning mothers. Here are your lions.
"Turkish prisoners who apparently witnessed some of these scenes were horrified and maddened at remembering the sight. The odor of burning flesh, they say, permeated the air for many days."
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For a hard copy of this article or hundreds of others from the time of the Armenian Genocide, get a copy of The Armenian Genocide - News Accounts from the American Press: 1915-1922

[melikianAvak]

Arabico, are you a history proffesor? so u had research about all of these which not in none turkish or russian books or recordings... great.. then you should know the turks nature? russians could never go any deeper then erzurum because even fighting against the whole world still a new army was ready to fight against russians but they left country before a fight but that army had a war with armanians and won. Kazim Karabekir was the leader of the army and he is known as the hawk of the east.. in 28 september 1920 Kazim Karabekir won armenians and got back sarıkamis in sept. 29 and kars in 30 th sept. then armenians wanted peace and promised to no to fight against turkiye again.. Read the Turkish History and u will see Turks always win when equal.. always..
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When we stand together as one against our enemy, we will always be victorious.

Avak :evil:



THE FIRST REPUBLIC (FROM 1918 TO SOVIETIZTION IN 1920-1921)

Collapse of Transcaucasian Federation. The triumph of Bolsheviks in 1917 put an end to the Russian Empire. In winter 1918, the Armenian, Georgian and Moslem leaders of Transcaucasia united to convene the Transcaucasian Federation, which proclaimed the secession of Transcaucasia from Russia.

The Turks, rapturous over the Russian Revolution, took it almost as a miracle produced by Allah. With the decline of the Russian military power, the Caucasus front collapsed, and the decaying Turkish power survived. To prevent the further destruction of the new Bolshevik State, Vladimir Lenin was forced to conclude the humiliating Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. The treaty had drastic consequences for the Armenians. The Turkish forces reoccupied the lands of the Western Armenia, earlier liberated by Russians.

In late May 1918, under the threat of a new Turkish offensive on the Caucasus, the Transcaucasian Federation collapsed after only 3 months of existence. In fact, the Federation was a still-born creature from the very beginning. Insuperable divergences existed between the Armenian, Georgian and Moslem deputations. The Georgians were oriented to Germany, and the Moslems to Turkey, whereas the Armenians, though loyal to the Entente, were supported by nobody.
On May 26 the independence of Georgia was declared. At the same time, the Moslems proclaimed a "Musavat Republic of Azerbaijan". This new Turkish state, created in the historical lands of the eastern Armenia, immediately and shamelessly laid claims on the Armenian territories in Karabakh, Zangezur and Nakhichevan.



The independence of Armenia proclaimed.
Flag of Armenia Left alone, Armenians faced the total annihilation as the 100 thousandth Turkish army crossed the pre-war Russian frontier, annexed the city of Kars and approached the Armenian capital of Yerevan. After having depopulated the Western Armenia, the Turkish military were now about to destroy the rest of Armenia and achieve their goal of eliminating the Armenian nation.
The Armenians raised an army of 40,000 men, including soldiers, officers, volunteers and mass levies. At first the Dashnak leaders wanted to evacuate the population and to surrender Yerevan, but the Military Council headed by the Colonel Pirumian finally decided to do battle.

The two armies met on May 28, 1918 near Sardarapat. The battle was crowned with an outstanding Armenian victory. Some 30 thousand of Turkish soldiers were killed; the Turks were flung out. Vahib-Pasha, the defeated Turkish commander, termed the Armenian soldiers as "the best fighters in the world". The Armenians also held defenses at Karaklis and at Abaran.
On the same day of May 28, 1918 Armenia was proclaimed an independent republic. However, the embryo state was devastated, with a dislocated economy, dozens of thousands of refugees and the population starving. The danger of a new Turkish aggression was still imminent. Also, the country was soon involved in a territorial conflict with Georgia. Moreover, the situation in Karabakh was especially dangerous as the new Azerbaijani state made a series of ultimatums to the Armenian population. In September, 1918 the Turkish troops invaded Baku and joined the Turkish-Azeri mobs in massacring some 30, 000 Armenians. Dozens of surrounding Armenian villages were destroyed.

The Wilsonian borders.

Woodrow Wilson Mean while, the European powers found themselves unable to solve the Armenian Question. The unification of the Caucasian Armenia with the Turkish Armenia proclaimed by the Armenian government in 1919 turned out Utopian. After Armenia was officially recognized by the governments of Allies and by the United States, the US President Woodrow Wilson was invited to determine the borders of the Armenian State. According to Wilson's map, a new Armenia would include most of its historically belonging lands. The project would never come true.

Armenia falls to Bolsheviks.

Mustafa Kemal Further more, Armenia would face the new territorial losses. Mustafa Kemal, the new Turkish opposition leader, was able to reach an agreement with the Bolshevik leaders of Russia. Enthusiastic with the idea of "exporting the revolution eastward", Lenin and Stalin were prompt in starting an unprecedented financial and military aid to Kemal. At that time Armenia exploded into anarchy as the Armenian Bolsheviks rose in the cities of Nakhichevan, Alexandrople and Kars. The Soviet government hypocritically negotiated with both Dashnak and Bolshevik leaders of Armenia.

In August 1920, the Treaty of Sèvres, signed by England, France and Turkey, bound Turkey to recognize the independence of Armenia and the Wilsonian boundaries. The new Armenian state was recognized by most of the countries, including the United States. However, after the triumph of Mustafa Kemal, the Turks, supported by the Bolshevik Russia, attacked the infant Armenian Republic again. The Armenian and Russian Bolsheviks played a fatal role in demoralizing the population and the Armenian army. The Bolshevik propaganda now called the Turks "socialists" and "friends of Russians". On the other hand, the victorious Russian XI Red Army, after successfully Sovietizing Baku, Azerbaijan, and Karabakh, approached Yerevan to "overthrow the Dashnaks". The disoriented Armenian army retreated, surrendering Kars and the uyezd of Surmali. The whole Armenian population there was then pitilessly butchered by the Turks.

On November 29, 1920, Armenia was declared a Soviet state.

Link: http://www.armenianhistory.info/thefirst.htm

[Shaumian]

The Dashnak period in Armenia was one of economic and cultural ruin. Industrial and agricultural production plummeted. More than one-third of the people died of starvation in 1918-19. The Turkish aggressors in April 1918 occupied a considerable part of Transcaucasia, including Armenia. The Turks concluded a separate peace with the Dashnak regime. After the defeat of the German bloc in November 1918, the British imperialists began to play the masters in Armenia.

Armenian Communist organizations led the struggle of the workers for the victory of soviet power. There was an uprising of Armenian workers in May 1920, which resulted in the establishment of soviet power in Aleksandropol, Kars, and Zanzegur. But the Dashnak regime with help from the Entente imperialists drowned in blood the May Uprising.

In September 1920 the Entente and the USA had pushed the Dashnaks into a war with Turkey. USA and Entente funded and supplied the Dashnaks. The imperialists were counting on complications to arise between Russia and Turkey, and they prepared to negotiate with Turkey at the expense of Armenia and take advantage of Turkey’s campaign in the Caucasus.

The Dashnaks signed the Aleksandropol peace treaty on Dec 2, by which Armenia became a vassal of Turkey. But the Dashnaks no longer had the right to sign a treaty, because soviet power was established on Nov 29, 1920. On March 16, 1921 a treaty was signed between Russia and Turkey. As a result, Turkey withdrew from Aleksandropol and Nakhichevan.